In coming to his journal, you chose to read what he has to say. and that is why I got all pissy when you posted in my journal. I am sorry I didn't mean to be a meanie, but it was my journal, and my tag did state It was gonna be offensive to some. so I offer peace because we trans folk are spread thin in the friends department. plus I'm no good at staying mad at people ^_^
Now see, when I say it's going to be offensive to some, that means I'm prepared to be flamed. Not that I felt like I flamed you, I was stating my opinion. And as long as comments are enabled, I feel like I can do that.
I got mad becasue you were attacking me personally and backstabbing.
*nods* I understand and I'm sorry. I just am very mexican in all my beliefs and in my twisted logic "thou shall not mess with thyne own friends opinions on their home turf" But I understand now. I shouldn't have reacted the way I did, it's just second nature to me. I'm sorta chivalrous about these kinda of things... but I am sorry. Plus I do believe women should have the choice I just don't think people should use it unless absolutely necissary.
what's flamed mean BTW? ( I can guess but I'm not exactly sure.) either way I was not prepared to be flamed. I'm not a confrentational kind of person. But if you piss me off BOY, am I a pain. I become really bull headed and down right nasty, so I'm sorry you just got me on the wrong day, and even as my friend I felt it was a personal attack on my beliefs because you posted an objection to something I posted only to enlighten people more about myself.
Oh, this is getting to be VERY interesting, wouldn't you say? :)
I see the thing about not being attacked on your home turf. Although, really, that's the best place, if you were to ask me, because home team always has the advantage. I'm sorry that you felt attacked "in your own home" sort of deal.
Flaming someone is when you attack them personally. Well, that's my definition, but it cn vary. It's sort of a know it when you see it sort of thing. I'd say I didn't think I flamed you - I just feel like I was forceful about what I had to say - although, if in disagreeing with you in that first comment, I'd called you an idiot or something, that would have been a flame. Now, I remember you called me a coward. I wouldn't call that a flame because you basically presented that as your opinion of all pro-choicers, not me personally.
While we're at it, I thought I'd offer a bit of a clarification on some of what I said (since we're calm an all):
"Unless absolutely necessary" is what I think too, but I think we have VERY different definitions of what is "absolutely necessary." I said in my entry on this that I don't agree with abortion as a means of birth control; as in, don't think you can have sex without using every contraceptive you can, just because you can abort it later. I don't think that's taking responsibility for your decisions. (On the other hand, someone who DOES think like that probably shouldn't have the kid, because who knows what kind of irresponsible parent they'd be.)
I don't have anything against people wanting to have kids (duh!) or being against abortion personally, as long as they don't try to tell me what I can do with MY body. ("I would never do it, but you can," is fine with me.)
I don't advocate putting your kid up for adoption unless you have NO other choice, because of the abuses of that system. Too many kids are abused in the homes they're given too, and the agencies that deal with those sorts of things are stretched too thin to catch it all. Plus, there are probably thousands of kids that never get adopted, because the system is so swamped with babies no one wants. It pisses me off a lot to see people say, "Well, if you don't want it, just adopt it out!" as if adoption makes everything go away.
Women suffer emotional trauma after abortion, but I bet they worry more when they have to spend the rest of their lives wondering what happened to the baby they put up for adoption.
I think that being pro-choice is sort of a natural consequence of the idea that people can do what they want with their bodies. As we in the trans community are constantly forced to jump through hoops to get done what we want done to OUR bodies, it doesn't make sense to me to force someone to be pregnant. Which would ultimately affect their body - change it - and I don't see how someone should be forced to do that.
Of course, a lot of this depends on the fact that I don't believe a lump of developing cells is a child. I mean, there's a theory that transsexuals are made when a fetus gets the wrong hormones in the womb. I think that's at 5 months. Suppose that's true...if we don't even have a gender - one of the most important building blocks of our identity - until 5 months, how can we be people from conception??
I might see it that way if I thought that a soul connected with the cells at conception. But I don't believe in souls. I'm an atheist.
BUT, I know that a lot of religions hold with the idea of souls, and the idea that a soul cannot be destroyed. And I think I recall reading about an idea that abortion is not a sin or whatever, because when a fetus is aborted, the soul just goes back to waiting for it's "turn" at mortal life - it isn't destroyed, it's released for another go-round.
that last paragraph really interested me. you know that could be techinally true, we may never know. * thinks about the logistics of that while he beats the shit out of his keyboard for not working and thus making me reboot the damn computer* you seriously don't believe in souls? * stares in his idiotic three year old child kindof way* I've never met any one who doesn't believe in souls. you really don't believe in anything greater? that's really interesting ( like not in a bad way) like I believe in something bigger ( like you know the whole jesus thing) but I don't believe the way it's intepreted( the bibble and all that, I think the people who wrote it fucked it up to benifeit themselves). but I've never not believed in anything, I can feel like there's something more no matter how much I said there wasn't.
About calling you a coward, I actually was personally attacking you at that point, which is why I'm apologizing *puppy dog forgiveness eyes*
* can't help but wonder if some of your reply was ment to patronize me; *is hurt* but only because I have an infirioiry complex* ;)
Oh did I mention Kenny is hot? oh wait you're staight, never mind ^_^
Sorry to get back to this so super late - it's been a crazy past 48 hours.
Anyway, no I don't believe in souls. You've never met someone who didn't? lol, you've never met another atheist?
I USED to be Catholic, and believe in god, and then I was kind of pagan, and I believed in some supernatural force...
But then I kind of came to the realization that it was all B.S. Well, it looks like B.S. to me, anyway. A man in the sky made me? The stars determine my personality? "Yeah," I said, "like, whatever."
*nods* I didn't know atheist didn't believe in souls. But I don't believe the whole the starts determine my personality crap either. it's a load of bull. you choose your path in life, I just have a feeling some one's keeping track.
I'm sorry, but I just had to tell you that I thought your defense of the pro-choice position was very well-put and I agree with everything except the part about the souls. I believe that we do have some kind of energy (not necessarily a soul) that is given to us at some point in development but not as early as conception. Same basic idea though. You aren't killing babies because at the point that abortions are allowed, they aren't individual living things, just parts of the women with the potential to be humans given the right circumstances.
I totally agreed with the rest though and that was really the point of my comment. I liked the way you stated it and it coincided with my beliefs, with only that small difference. It's kool to talk to someone that believes the same.
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(no subject)
Date: 2002-10-27 07:28 am (UTC)and that is why I got all pissy when you posted in my journal. I am sorry I didn't mean to be a meanie, but it was my journal, and my tag did state It was gonna be offensive to some. so I offer peace because we trans folk are spread thin in the friends department.
plus I'm no good at staying mad at people ^_^
(no subject)
Date: 2002-10-27 07:37 am (UTC)I got mad becasue you were attacking me personally and backstabbing.
Re:
Date: 2002-10-27 07:24 pm (UTC)But I understand now. I shouldn't have reacted the way I did, it's just second nature to me. I'm sorta chivalrous about these kinda of things... but I am sorry.
Plus I do believe women should have the choice I just don't think people should use it unless absolutely necissary.
what's flamed mean BTW?
( I can guess but I'm not exactly sure.)
either way I was not prepared to be flamed. I'm not a confrentational kind of person. But if you piss me off BOY, am I a pain. I become really bull headed and down right nasty, so I'm sorry you just got me on the wrong day, and even as my friend I felt it was a personal attack on my beliefs because you posted an objection to something I posted only to enlighten people more about myself.
(no subject)
Date: 2002-10-27 08:28 pm (UTC)I see the thing about not being attacked on your home turf. Although, really, that's the best place, if you were to ask me, because home team always has the advantage. I'm sorry that you felt attacked "in your own home" sort of deal.
Flaming someone is when you attack them personally. Well, that's my definition, but it cn vary. It's sort of a know it when you see it sort of thing. I'd say I didn't think I flamed you - I just feel like I was forceful about what I had to say - although, if in disagreeing with you in that first comment, I'd called you an idiot or something, that would have been a flame. Now, I remember you called me a coward. I wouldn't call that a flame because you basically presented that as your opinion of all pro-choicers, not me personally.
While we're at it, I thought I'd offer a bit of a clarification on some of what I said (since we're calm an all):
"Unless absolutely necessary" is what I think too, but I think we have VERY different definitions of what is "absolutely necessary." I said in my entry on this that I don't agree with abortion as a means of birth control; as in, don't think you can have sex without using every contraceptive you can, just because you can abort it later. I don't think that's taking responsibility for your decisions. (On the other hand, someone who DOES think like that probably shouldn't have the kid, because who knows what kind of irresponsible parent they'd be.)
I don't have anything against people wanting to have kids (duh!) or being against abortion personally, as long as they don't try to tell me what I can do with MY body. ("I would never do it, but you can," is fine with me.)
I don't advocate putting your kid up for adoption unless you have NO other choice, because of the abuses of that system. Too many kids are abused in the homes they're given too, and the agencies that deal with those sorts of things are stretched too thin to catch it all. Plus, there are probably thousands of kids that never get adopted, because the system is so swamped with babies no one wants. It pisses me off a lot to see people say, "Well, if you don't want it, just adopt it out!" as if adoption makes everything go away.
Women suffer emotional trauma after abortion, but I bet they worry more when they have to spend the rest of their lives wondering what happened to the baby they put up for adoption.
I think that being pro-choice is sort of a natural consequence of the idea that people can do what they want with their bodies. As we in the trans community are constantly forced to jump through hoops to get done what we want done to OUR bodies, it doesn't make sense to me to force someone to be pregnant. Which would ultimately affect their body - change it - and I don't see how someone should be forced to do that.
Of course, a lot of this depends on the fact that I don't believe a lump of developing cells is a child. I mean, there's a theory that transsexuals are made when a fetus gets the wrong hormones in the womb. I think that's at 5 months. Suppose that's true...if we don't even have a gender - one of the most important building blocks of our identity - until 5 months, how can we be people from conception??
I might see it that way if I thought that a soul connected with the cells at conception. But I don't believe in souls. I'm an atheist.
BUT, I know that a lot of religions hold with the idea of souls, and the idea that a soul cannot be destroyed. And I think I recall reading about an idea that abortion is not a sin or whatever, because when a fetus is aborted, the soul just goes back to waiting for it's "turn" at mortal life - it isn't destroyed, it's released for another go-round.
Re:
Date: 2002-10-27 09:29 pm (UTC)you seriously don't believe in souls? * stares in his idiotic three year old child kindof way* I've never met any one who doesn't believe in souls. you really don't believe in anything greater? that's really interesting ( like not in a bad way) like I believe in something bigger ( like you know the whole jesus thing) but I don't believe the way it's intepreted( the bibble and all that, I think the people who wrote it fucked it up to benifeit themselves). but I've never not believed in anything, I can feel like there's something more no matter how much I said there wasn't.
About calling you a coward, I actually was personally attacking you at that point, which is why I'm apologizing *puppy dog forgiveness eyes*
* can't help but wonder if some of your reply was ment to patronize me; *is hurt* but only because I have an infirioiry complex* ;)
Oh did I mention Kenny is hot? oh wait you're staight, never mind ^_^
(no subject)
Date: 2002-10-29 08:15 am (UTC)Anyway, no I don't believe in souls. You've never met someone who didn't? lol, you've never met another atheist?
I USED to be Catholic, and believe in god, and then I was kind of pagan, and I believed in some supernatural force...
But then I kind of came to the realization that it was all B.S. Well, it looks like B.S. to me, anyway. A man in the sky made me? The stars determine my personality? "Yeah," I said, "like, whatever."
Re:
Date: 2002-10-29 07:21 pm (UTC)But I don't believe the whole the starts determine my personality crap either. it's a load of bull. you choose your path in life, I just have a feeling some one's keeping track.
(no subject)
Date: 2002-10-29 03:37 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2002-10-29 08:16 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2002-10-29 09:14 am (UTC)