TTFN

[beandelphiki]

I just removed ftm from my friends list. This feels weird, because it was the first community I ever joined.

But I'm feeling AWFUL about that community right now. Is it just me, or is there a lot of negativity lately? I dunno, but it seems to me like people just want to fight.

Not to mention that the reminders that I'm NOT genderqueer, that I'm NOT ambiguous about being a boy, and that I'm NOT like most people in that community - or so it seems - are NOT needed.

So g'bye ftm. For now, at least.

Comments

[griffen.livejournal.com]

I don't think I still have it on my list of communities. I think that I read it for about two days, shrugged and said "ehh," and removed it.

You Are Not Alone. *hugs*

[ex-indistinc653.livejournal.com]

i've gone back and forth about being in the ftm community as well...

i don't consider myself f, ftm, or m, so where do i fit in? no where. but ftm is part of my identity, some of the time. because i WAS born female, and i do feel in the middle (t) and i do feel male.

granted, a lot of what is said i don't agree with or feel in my own life (packing is one such aspect) but i think it's beneficial to continue learning.

and, well, fighting anywhere just sucks. argh to that.

[danielray.livejournal.com]

heh. you talking about this, among others?

i'm a big fan of the skim/skip tactic of reading, myself.

[beandelphiki.livejournal.com]

I like skim and skip too, but even that isn't working lately...the main thing is I feel very lonely when I see no one like me posting, so what's the point? I've seen it all by now, anyway.

I really, REALLY didn't like Michael's "real men" comment. I think I probably have a lot in common with Seb, and you can argue that he is a jerk sometimes or not, but that made me cringe.

It was the last straw, actually.

[danielray.livejournal.com]

so what's "like you"? --like, what specifically would you want to see there?

i hear you on the 'i've seen it all by now' front--it seems like the recycle rate of subjects on lj is even shorter than that on email lists, which is also interesting to me. i mean, really, how many times can a person ask about how to bind?

also--it looks like lately a lot of newly out people are posting to the community, which keeps discussion centered a lot about people being uncertain about and trying to come to terms with their identities. which makes sense--it seems like, particularly among ftm's, people spend a lot of time in online forums when they're first trying to figure themselves out, and then kind of fade off.

how do you feel about the transmen community trevor is trying to get going? --that appears to be his response to the 'seen-it-all' feeling.

re: the Seb and Michael thing: I think they are both jerks to each other, and I think they do bring their personal dislike of each other to public forums way too often. Michael makes me cringe when he talks to Seb, and Seb periodically makes me cringe when he talks about his definitions of manhood. *shrug*

[beandelphiki.livejournal.com]

I haven't really got a clue what I'd like to see except this: I don't want to see people saying, "oh, well, I'm not like what the books say I'm SUPPOSED to be like, so THERE," and say it as though the idea of being "by the book" is distasteful. Meaning, they don't fit the DSM IV version of ftm, blah, blah, they weren't "tomboys", etc. I DON'T have a problem with trans guys who are different from the medical viewpoint, because that means that people aren't afraid to look more broadly at gender - but at the same time, there seems to be a pretty scornful attitude toward guys that DO fit the ftm stereotype.

What's "like me" - well. Open DSM IV to "transsexualism in the female." Check off everything on the list of indications. That's me.

I suppose it is true that people who are just coming out have joined, but a while back, there was also a shift in focus...someone mentioned feeling genderqueer, there was a collective sigh of relief, and now that's all that's in discussion.

The transmen community - I thought it soounded like a great idea, went looking for it, and couldn't find it. I couldn't even seem to find the post Trevor made, so I secretly wondered if he got flamed for the idea and deleted it.

What are Seb's definitions of manhood?

[danielray.livejournal.com]

for starters: trevor's community is here. it hasn't really taken off yet, but it might be nice if it did. i like the overall idea, but the name (separating the men from the bois) kind of makes me cringe, and the interests list, which includes things like boating, driving, fishing, fixing things, trucks, and working out, makes me think that my particular personality--in a fashion completely unrelated to gender--is not exactly what he is looking for. so i'm keeping an eye on it, but my life is more about art and biking-as-an-alternative-to-driving and activism and reading and computers...

on other notes:

so i keep joking--but i might actually do it--that i want to go to true spirit next year and run a workshop called "Not Trans Enough," about various of the identity splits in the ftm-spectrum communities and how people often feel left out or hostile across those divides.

like: to oversimplify a bit:
i can't tell you how many times i have heard genderqueer-identified folks talk about how they feel that binary-identified guys look down on them, claim that they are not "real men," that they are not trans enough, etc.

and i can't tell you how many times i have heard binary-identified folks talk about how they feel that genderqueer-identified folks look down on them, think they are not cool enough, think that they are evil and judgmental, that they are tools of the system, etc.

i have a few theories about why this happens, not so sure what one can do about it, except that the true spirit idea is simply to see what happens if a bunch of people in the same room acknowledge it.

withdrawing form a hostile-feeling group is definitely a good way to maintain one's own sanity.

anyways, i feel like michael and seb get into these arguments that are like classic, comical illustrations of these 2 camps. michael accuses seb of looking down on genderqueers while sometimes implying that being binary-identified is distasteful, and seb accuses michael of looking down binary-identified folks while sometimes implying that being genderqueer is less valid. and of course they keep using the same words to refer to entirely different concepts (I think michael's "man" and seb's "man" are two very different animals).

and i watch the whole thing from my own weird perspective--i think my favorite way of identifying myself lately is as the most binary-identified genderqueer i know. i like the *philosophies* of genderqueer stuff, and i'm totally invested in the world relaxing the overall arch of gender binarism, and i believe that people's gender identities should be voluntary, rather than imposed and enforced. but i don't think that that means that everyone should be genderqueer, and i am pretty binarily male myself. i certainly don't feel female, i don't think i ever felt female, although i managed to live in a sort of gender-free space for the bulk of my early life, in part because no one really imposed feminity on me (thank god), and (from the other side) in part because i totally didn't realize that i could ever do anything other than *want* to be a boy... once i realized that doing, rather than simply wanting, was an option, then the course became--y'know, over some time and dealing with issues and stuff--clear.

and it is late, and i am babbling at entirely too great length in your lj. hopefully you will be stuck at some boring task tomorrow, and i will provide about 13527545076215 hours of distraction from it...

[beandelphiki.livejournal.com]

o Actually I read this last night, but I decided not to reply when I saw it because I was going to bed (finally)...I was up late reading *cough* slash. Look what a good boy I am when I have to go to school in the morning! le sigh.

o No wonder I couldn't find Trevor's community - it doesn't have "ftm" listed as an interest. Thanks.

And I, for one, like boating, driving, fishing, fixing things, trucks, and working out, thank you. *grin* (Okay, maybe not working out...) Although I like reading, various arts and biking too...neh.

o I see what you're saying about the binary guys vs. the genderqueer people...it makes a lot of sense. And I'm not sure if I'm blowing up what's there or not, I just feel like I want to get away from what's making me feel uncomfortable.

o i think my favorite way of identifying myself lately is as the most binary-identified genderqueer i know. i like the *philosophies* of genderqueer stuff, and i'm totally invested in the world relaxing the overall arch of gender binarism, and i believe that people's gender identities should be voluntary, rather than imposed and enforced. but i don't think that that means that everyone should be genderqueer, and i am pretty binarily male myself. i certainly don't feel female, i don't think i ever felt female, although i managed to live in a sort of gender-free space for the bulk of my early life, in part because no one really imposed feminity on me (thank god), and (from the other side) in part because i totally didn't realize that i could ever do anything other than *want* to be a boy... once i realized that doing, rather than simply wanting, was an option, then the course became--y'know, over some time and dealing with issues and stuff--clear.

Exactly...I like that.

[danielray.livejournal.com]

And I, for one, like boating, driving, fishing, fixing things, trucks, and working out, thank you. *grin* (Okay, maybe not working out...) Although I like reading, various arts and biking too...neh.
ha ha.

well, *everyone* is interested in talking about how they never work out...

and i do like fixing things (i mean, my primary joy in college was messing around in the physics lab), but these days i only fix things when they are broken, because i have to.

And I'm not sure if I'm blowing up what's there or not, I just feel like I want to get away from what's making me feel uncomfortable.

definitely a reasonable action.

[danielray.livejournal.com]

huh--wow, so now, contrary perhaps to your point, i am rummaging through ftm back entries, and i'm like, 'damn! i missed out on some fights!'

so i guess reading a post when it is first up and not really seeing the comments people leave also leaves one (meaning me) oblivious...

[archanglrobriel.livejournal.com]

I took it off my community list too, and unsubbed from pretty much every email list that deals with ftm's or transness for the same reason. Once upon a time I was on them -all- but the amount of negativity, fear mongering, compulisive conformity and just plain flaming of anyone who walks the transsexual/transgender path differently really got to me after awhile. I too seem to be unlike 90% of the people in the "community" and I wonder about that. If you're leaving and I'm leaving, how many have left before us who might've been more like us? It makes you wonder...