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beandelphikiGrrr.
*A-HEM*
You know, I think the concept of a relationship without expectations is a fairy-tale. There's no such thing.
Think about it; every day you are in a relationship, you have expectations of SOME sort. You have expectations that there will be a kind word for you when you come home from school/work. There's expectations that there will be a sympathetic ear for your problems and frustrations.
You have expectations - and assumptions - about the depth of feeling directed toward you.
You have expectations about how long the relationship will last.
And you have expectations regarding a certain amount of continuity in the relationship.
Meaning, that if a person presents themself to you in a certain way and makes you think that they are a certain type of person, you expect them to remain that way. This is not to say that you don't expect change of some sort, because human beings are not static creatures. We all grow and change. No, this is an expectation that the person you are dating will not suddenly and unexpectedly become a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PERSON. This is NOT an unreasonable expectation.
"Loving someone for who they are" becomes a tad difficult when you don't know who that someone IS. Who are they? Until you get a grasp on that, trying to love them for who they are is confusing and upsetting. I can personally speak to the guilt involved on that one.
While using your expectations as a weapon to force someone, directly or indirectly, to conform to your desires is abusive, it MIGHT be argued that suddenly changing everything about the way you act in a relationship is DECEITFUL.
Not telling someone that you, say, have gender issues when you know you do...and attempting to convince someone that their perceptions of your gender really fit what you want them to, even if they don't...gee. Forgivable because we aren't always sure of who we are...but confusing and hurtful to others trying to deal with it and help you deal with it, nonetheless.
We ALL do hurtful things to each other when we love. It comes with the territory. It's understandable. It's forgivable.
At least, it is for the people directly involved. You know?
*A-HEM*
You know, I think the concept of a relationship without expectations is a fairy-tale. There's no such thing.
Think about it; every day you are in a relationship, you have expectations of SOME sort. You have expectations that there will be a kind word for you when you come home from school/work. There's expectations that there will be a sympathetic ear for your problems and frustrations.
You have expectations - and assumptions - about the depth of feeling directed toward you.
You have expectations about how long the relationship will last.
And you have expectations regarding a certain amount of continuity in the relationship.
Meaning, that if a person presents themself to you in a certain way and makes you think that they are a certain type of person, you expect them to remain that way. This is not to say that you don't expect change of some sort, because human beings are not static creatures. We all grow and change. No, this is an expectation that the person you are dating will not suddenly and unexpectedly become a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PERSON. This is NOT an unreasonable expectation.
"Loving someone for who they are" becomes a tad difficult when you don't know who that someone IS. Who are they? Until you get a grasp on that, trying to love them for who they are is confusing and upsetting. I can personally speak to the guilt involved on that one.
While using your expectations as a weapon to force someone, directly or indirectly, to conform to your desires is abusive, it MIGHT be argued that suddenly changing everything about the way you act in a relationship is DECEITFUL.
Not telling someone that you, say, have gender issues when you know you do...and attempting to convince someone that their perceptions of your gender really fit what you want them to, even if they don't...gee. Forgivable because we aren't always sure of who we are...but confusing and hurtful to others trying to deal with it and help you deal with it, nonetheless.
We ALL do hurtful things to each other when we love. It comes with the territory. It's understandable. It's forgivable.
At least, it is for the people directly involved. You know?
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(no subject)
Date: 2003-08-03 04:59 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2003-08-03 05:22 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2003-08-03 06:09 pm (UTC)really, I'm kinda confused, because from my perspective, my entire post was about how confused and mixed up I was, and how it negatively impacted people, and that I need to change that and work on it before I even consider trying to be with someone else, because it ended up being so horrible and hurtful to you.
At least... that was my intention...
*goes to reread*
I mean... I didn't "change" on purpose... like, "oh, I think I'll try "girly" this time.. and see how that works..." it's just that... I felt so... innocent.
oh.. wait: you didn't think that this referred to you, did it:
See... all the relationships I've ever had with men... physical ones, I mean, have been abusive in one way or another.
because I was trying, with the "physical ones, I mean," to differentiate between our relationship and the ones that I have had in the way long ago past which were physical.
those were abusive... and so when we got together, I think part of my mind didn't want things to go that direction, so I kind of "switched" into a different mode, not on purpose... but one that had literally almost no experience with dating or guys or anything like that... the innocent one.
but.. my point was that that was wrong... and that I was trying to protect myself instinctively (not on purpose) against some danger that was not present... meaning that you weren't going to treat me that way... but part of me was afraid that you would, so it switched me and, ultimately, us, into a different mode altogether.
Again... that was wrong, and it was all me. My fault... and I'm trying to figure out where that comes from... and I'm thinking it all comes from lisa, and that if I can eventually work through that issue, then I can work through the subsequent issues of what happened to me later, like when I was age 13-15 or so... and then, ultimately... I can start working on rebuilding my personality into a more cohesive entity...
because you're right, when you say, ""Loving someone for who they are" becomes a tad difficult when you don't know who that someone IS. Who are they? Until you get a grasp on that, trying to love them for who they are is confusing and upsetting."
I never meant to imply that you did anything to make me change. That was all me, or... all lisa or somesuch.. but basically all me.
I'm sorry if it sounded like I was blaming you for anything... because I was trying to specifically not blame you. I was blaming lisa, and I was blaming any of the several guys I may have encountered between the ages of 13-15 or 16 or so, for either:
1.) teaching me the wrong things about relationships, or
2.) exploiting my wrong thinking about relationships.
and, ultimately, for robbing me of the ability to have a, "normal" relationship with you... which is all I really wanted.
you do write a lot about things being done in a relationship being forgivable, and that... I feel really genuinely happy about that. But it confuses me, in that I'm still not sure what part you were mad about... so I don't know if I did something wrong and just don't realize it.
oh, and... *reading more*
this part: the minute I got a "boyfriend..." I changed.
Because... I wanted it to be different, I guess.
was referring to wanting it to be different from the abusive and non-loving relationships I had in my past, again around ages 13-16 or so... I didn't mean that I just decided I thought it would be fun to be different, or anything like that.
and..
the gender issues...
I'm sorry... I mean, they've been floating around like wisps since I was young, but I'd never put them all together into anything anywhere near as cohesive as, "gender identity disorder." It was just odd thoughts and feelings... and... our relationship kind of brought them all to a head, and they kind of coalesced... at an unfortunate time, to be sure. But... I'd never have "known" something like that and deliberately hidden it from you... I swear.
and you've always been nothing but kind about that, for which I am very grateful.
(no subject)
Date: 2003-08-03 06:13 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2003-08-03 06:29 pm (UTC)I loaded myself up with the unrealistic expectations. And... if that wasn't bad enough, eventually, I extended the expectations to him, as well, further poisoning the relationship.
in that part, I meant, expectations that I was going to be used and abused and tossed aside... not any of the realistic expectations that you outlined. See.. those didn't even occur to me as expectations to have, because I'm so screwed up about male-male relationships.
Other types of relationships I can understand... which is why
*sigh*
again I apologize, because I so obviously screwed things up for both of us. One of these years, I'll figure out who I really am.
actually, I was going to make a post about that later... because..
well, I guess I'll just post about it.
(no subject)
Date: 2003-08-03 06:30 pm (UTC)I knew I should have deleted that post.
wait...
Date: 2003-08-03 10:26 pm (UTC)was this even about me??
I'm so confused.
I just restarted my Paxil today after about 3 weeks or more of not taking it... so my mind is only working at about half speed.
*hugs*
*collapses into a confused heap*
Re: wait...
Date: 2003-08-03 10:59 pm (UTC)No, this wasn't anger at you. I was upset by mhw/griffen's comments.
*more hugs*
(no subject)
Date: 2003-08-03 11:02 pm (UTC)I have this tendency to assume the worst, really. Even when I hear people muttering and I can't hear what they're saying, I think they're saying something nasty about me.
Hypersensitive to criticism/paranoid, I guess.
It occurred to me after writing this that you might not even know I dated Frank...so my whole issue might be entirely misplaced. Obviously, my second reaction was right.
I'm still glad I said something, but I think I need to work on being more non-confrontational.
(no subject)
Date: 2003-08-03 11:07 pm (UTC)Re: wait...
Date: 2003-08-03 11:10 pm (UTC)*hugs*
*faints*
Re: wait...
Date: 2003-08-03 11:11 pm (UTC)Do you *really* think that I would have poked at you like that? You know me -- you know that I don't do that -- and neither does Kay.
*shakes head* I thought you knew me better than that. I wasn't talking about you. I was talking to Frank about his own issues.
Re: wait...
Date: 2003-08-03 11:15 pm (UTC)Um...yes?
I don't know if I trust ANYBODY that much.
Re: wait...
Date: 2003-08-03 11:15 pm (UTC)