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beandelphikiOver in a teaching community last night (yes, I lurk and read education-related communities, shush), a tutor and education student(?), who seems to be very cool, posted her disagreement with Michigan requiring all of its students to take Algebra II.
Not being a teacher, or familiar with the education system in Michigan, I'm not qualified to say anything about the requirements in Michigan specifically, and I wasn't too interested in saying anything at all until she and another member of the comm (in Michigan) got into it.
Michigan teach (responding to someone else saying that they wished the state would bring back Consumer Math, which would teach students to budget, balance a checkbook, avoid being scammed by a mortgage company, etc.):
[...] So, my question is, if students take basic consumer math, how will they necessarily get those higher level problem solving skills that they won't get unless they have more difficult problems thrown at them as they do in algebra and algebra II?
Tutor/ed. student OP:
I think you're kidding yourself if you believe many students pick up "higher-level problem solving skills" from high school math classes. Most of them temporarily memorize rote procedures so they can succeed on exams and then have absolutely no underlying comprehension of mathematics. [...]
Michigan teach:
*flips out* OMG, I'm so mad! How can you not think that high school math teaches HIGHER-LEVEL PROBLEM-SOLVIN' SKILLZ! That's so horrible!
And she apologized, and they had this nice little thread where they made up and managed to agree on something or other, and blah. Whatever, I was still boggling that there's a high school math teacher out there so utterly delusional that ze thinks the sorry excuse for a math curriculum most people in North America go through prepares people in any way to be able to critically attack higher-level math.
Me (being polite):
Okay, my response here will probably just make you angry again. But I have to agree with the OP - I sincerely doubt most high schools students grasp much of the concepts learned in high school math unless they have significant innate math talent.
I explained my position (Canadian, notateacher, etc.), explained that I was an above-average math student, and proceeded to describe my experience in the high school math classroom. I said that I never really got the concepts behind what we learned (with the exception of areas in which I was interested), and said that I got through high school math mostly by rote (as the OP said). I said that I didn't think high school math prepared anyone for what I'd understand to be "higher-level" problem-solving.
I said that I didn't believe teacher instruction went much beyond what is required of standardized testing (and I don't). I said I was surprised anyone would think that it does. I concluded by saying:
It's not the teachers' fault, but I don't believe we have a system that is set up to do any better.
Probably, I'll avoid getting scammed by a mortgage company by asking my family how to avoid getting scammed, and enlisting their help.
I mean, what IS higher-level problem solving, anyway? Surely "higher-level" indicates something above the average, something that is more than what is expected of everyone! Surely "higher-level" indicates the ability to actually understand the formulas being used, to apply them critically, rather than by rote. Right?
...Right?
Apparently not.
Ze replied:
I don't think you really understood what I was referring to when I referred to the concepts learned. I'm not talking about the quadratic formula, or how to graph a circle. I'm talking about experiences such as shopping for a mortgage, how do you know which is a better offer (not a better company that won't scam you).
Ze went on to describe various situation in which math matters in Real Life. Budgeting, party planning, and so forth. Er?
Okay, my issue here is: HOW IS THAT HIGHER-LEVEL PROBLEM-SOLVING? Believe me, my dyscalculic mother can do those things, and she BARELY passed high school math. (Not really her fault that no one knew much about math learning disabilities at the time.) She has no faith in her math ability whatsoever, after having it take so many years of beating, but sheesh, she can budget!
Ze went on about how algebra courses teach the skills needed to do these things, that it is skills learned "behind the math." Okaaay, but...if that's It, if that's your big, ambitious goal - to teach people to budget - then why does ze have an issue with Consumer Math?
(Having poked around hir journal, I can say that the answer to this is that ze apparently doesn't think Consumer Math - which teaches these skills directly - does as good a job as a course which teaches those skills INDIRECTLY! Okay! If people actually GOT those things out of algebra courses, that would be true, I guess.)
Ze finished off by saying:
Also, on a personal note, I do NOT want members of the business world, of the factory world, of the engineering world, and so forth, to not possess these skills. all the poo-pooing of these standards is just enabling more people skate by without taking responsibility for what they need to know, evidenced by your response to the mortgage question.
Whoa! Was that making it personal, now? I think so. Evidently, earning myself a solid run of Honor's marks in mathematics makes me someone who hasn't "taken responsibility for what [I] need to know," if I'm still unclear on how to handle adult finance.
It's times like these, you wish you could reach through the screen and slap some goddamn fools smart.
I said that I did not consider budgeting to be "higher-level" math, and that taking responsibility for learning how to avoid a mortgage scam is precisely why I would ask my family to help me. (These are educators I ACTUALLY TRUST. These are people with personal stake in seeing me succeed, not people who consider me a number in a system.) I said:
I find it really rude of you to tell me that it's my responsibility to obtain specific knowledge from a high school math course that doesn't TEACH it. Frankly, it's arrogant to think that high school math is teaching such fantastic problem-solving skills that any student walking out the door will be able to navigate the world of adult finance with no outside help.
And that was pretty much the end of our conversation. Ze told me I was clearly a troll, since I apparently don't "think education is useful," and that my last response was "stupid." Okay!
Meanwhile, the OP commented to me saying that it's true that high school math does not teach essential problem-solving skills. She used an example from a book she has of students who were given a graphing problem that can be easily solved using the Pythagorean theorem; a problem that two-thirds of students taking the particular math exam in the book missed. Perfect example of how rote learning does not translate to problems-solving skills. (And an example that matches with my personal history, too, as I said over there, because students taking the graduating Diploma Exams in my province have missed problems like that too, despite being taught all the component skills to solve it.)
The Michigan teacher defended this by saying:
And how many of those students had had a graphing class? How many of them took, even, a class in which the pythagorean theorem was even taught?
Now, I am clearly not well-versed in what is taught in American math classroom, but can this be for real? Do student in the U.S. graduate without ever having graphed two points? More: do students in the U.S. actually graduate 9th/10th grade without being taught the Pythagorean theorem? HOW CAN THIS BE. MY BRANE. MY BRANE.
But yeah, look at that - a high school math teacher, defending a failure of education with the idea that the concepts may not have been taught. Weak.
Over in the Michigan teacher's journal after all this, there's more flipping out. Ze seems to be under the impression that both I and the OP were arguing the uselessness of teaching math. (Er?) And rants about people not wanting to do any work to graduate.
Sometimes, it simply amazes me what people take away from any given discussion. I mean, ze says:
One of them said that
People who go through high school math can generally budget to some degree
to which I completely disagree. If you haven't learned how to look at a situation critically, you won't know where to begin.
Which is kinda what I was saying - the last part, anyway. (If my mom can budget, I think most people can, but there's muddling through, and there's doing it well.) Unless, of course, you're either taught that skill directly, or you're taught the critical thinking skills to tackle this. And in many high school math courses, you aren't given either.
But most hilariously, ze finishes this thought with (bolds mine):
No, math is definitely not the only one in which you learn these skills, but math and science (and technology, too!) are problem solving/critical thinking throughout, overloaded more than in other classes. Yes, you think critically in English. Depending on the history class, also there, but mine were mainly "memorize these facts and talk about the stuff that happened".
"Whoosh!" as my dad would say. Don't you LOVE when the person you've argued with makes your own points FOR you?
Yeah, critical thinking skills SHOULD be used in a history class. They often aren't, though, just as they often aren't in math classes. What this person apparently fails to realize is that most people experience math the way ze experienced history - "we memorized stuff."
It would be funnier if I wasn't over here beating my head on the desk.
I don't know how anyone can seriously look at America (or Canada, for that matter) and think to themselves, "Boy, there's some critical thinking skills in action!"
Gah.
Not being a teacher, or familiar with the education system in Michigan, I'm not qualified to say anything about the requirements in Michigan specifically, and I wasn't too interested in saying anything at all until she and another member of the comm (in Michigan) got into it.
Michigan teach (responding to someone else saying that they wished the state would bring back Consumer Math, which would teach students to budget, balance a checkbook, avoid being scammed by a mortgage company, etc.):
[...] So, my question is, if students take basic consumer math, how will they necessarily get those higher level problem solving skills that they won't get unless they have more difficult problems thrown at them as they do in algebra and algebra II?
Tutor/ed. student OP:
I think you're kidding yourself if you believe many students pick up "higher-level problem solving skills" from high school math classes. Most of them temporarily memorize rote procedures so they can succeed on exams and then have absolutely no underlying comprehension of mathematics. [...]
Michigan teach:
*flips out* OMG, I'm so mad! How can you not think that high school math teaches HIGHER-LEVEL PROBLEM-SOLVIN' SKILLZ! That's so horrible!
And she apologized, and they had this nice little thread where they made up and managed to agree on something or other, and blah. Whatever, I was still boggling that there's a high school math teacher out there so utterly delusional that ze thinks the sorry excuse for a math curriculum most people in North America go through prepares people in any way to be able to critically attack higher-level math.
Me (being polite):
Okay, my response here will probably just make you angry again. But I have to agree with the OP - I sincerely doubt most high schools students grasp much of the concepts learned in high school math unless they have significant innate math talent.
I explained my position (Canadian, notateacher, etc.), explained that I was an above-average math student, and proceeded to describe my experience in the high school math classroom. I said that I never really got the concepts behind what we learned (with the exception of areas in which I was interested), and said that I got through high school math mostly by rote (as the OP said). I said that I didn't think high school math prepared anyone for what I'd understand to be "higher-level" problem-solving.
I said that I didn't believe teacher instruction went much beyond what is required of standardized testing (and I don't). I said I was surprised anyone would think that it does. I concluded by saying:
It's not the teachers' fault, but I don't believe we have a system that is set up to do any better.
Probably, I'll avoid getting scammed by a mortgage company by asking my family how to avoid getting scammed, and enlisting their help.
I mean, what IS higher-level problem solving, anyway? Surely "higher-level" indicates something above the average, something that is more than what is expected of everyone! Surely "higher-level" indicates the ability to actually understand the formulas being used, to apply them critically, rather than by rote. Right?
...Right?
Apparently not.
Ze replied:
I don't think you really understood what I was referring to when I referred to the concepts learned. I'm not talking about the quadratic formula, or how to graph a circle. I'm talking about experiences such as shopping for a mortgage, how do you know which is a better offer (not a better company that won't scam you).
Ze went on to describe various situation in which math matters in Real Life. Budgeting, party planning, and so forth. Er?
Okay, my issue here is: HOW IS THAT HIGHER-LEVEL PROBLEM-SOLVING? Believe me, my dyscalculic mother can do those things, and she BARELY passed high school math. (Not really her fault that no one knew much about math learning disabilities at the time.) She has no faith in her math ability whatsoever, after having it take so many years of beating, but sheesh, she can budget!
Ze went on about how algebra courses teach the skills needed to do these things, that it is skills learned "behind the math." Okaaay, but...if that's It, if that's your big, ambitious goal - to teach people to budget - then why does ze have an issue with Consumer Math?
(Having poked around hir journal, I can say that the answer to this is that ze apparently doesn't think Consumer Math - which teaches these skills directly - does as good a job as a course which teaches those skills INDIRECTLY! Okay! If people actually GOT those things out of algebra courses, that would be true, I guess.)
Ze finished off by saying:
Also, on a personal note, I do NOT want members of the business world, of the factory world, of the engineering world, and so forth, to not possess these skills. all the poo-pooing of these standards is just enabling more people skate by without taking responsibility for what they need to know, evidenced by your response to the mortgage question.
Whoa! Was that making it personal, now? I think so. Evidently, earning myself a solid run of Honor's marks in mathematics makes me someone who hasn't "taken responsibility for what [I] need to know," if I'm still unclear on how to handle adult finance.
It's times like these, you wish you could reach through the screen and slap some goddamn fools smart.
I said that I did not consider budgeting to be "higher-level" math, and that taking responsibility for learning how to avoid a mortgage scam is precisely why I would ask my family to help me. (These are educators I ACTUALLY TRUST. These are people with personal stake in seeing me succeed, not people who consider me a number in a system.) I said:
I find it really rude of you to tell me that it's my responsibility to obtain specific knowledge from a high school math course that doesn't TEACH it. Frankly, it's arrogant to think that high school math is teaching such fantastic problem-solving skills that any student walking out the door will be able to navigate the world of adult finance with no outside help.
And that was pretty much the end of our conversation. Ze told me I was clearly a troll, since I apparently don't "think education is useful," and that my last response was "stupid." Okay!
Meanwhile, the OP commented to me saying that it's true that high school math does not teach essential problem-solving skills. She used an example from a book she has of students who were given a graphing problem that can be easily solved using the Pythagorean theorem; a problem that two-thirds of students taking the particular math exam in the book missed. Perfect example of how rote learning does not translate to problems-solving skills. (And an example that matches with my personal history, too, as I said over there, because students taking the graduating Diploma Exams in my province have missed problems like that too, despite being taught all the component skills to solve it.)
The Michigan teacher defended this by saying:
And how many of those students had had a graphing class? How many of them took, even, a class in which the pythagorean theorem was even taught?
Now, I am clearly not well-versed in what is taught in American math classroom, but can this be for real? Do student in the U.S. graduate without ever having graphed two points? More: do students in the U.S. actually graduate 9th/10th grade without being taught the Pythagorean theorem? HOW CAN THIS BE. MY BRANE. MY BRANE.
But yeah, look at that - a high school math teacher, defending a failure of education with the idea that the concepts may not have been taught. Weak.
Over in the Michigan teacher's journal after all this, there's more flipping out. Ze seems to be under the impression that both I and the OP were arguing the uselessness of teaching math. (Er?) And rants about people not wanting to do any work to graduate.
Sometimes, it simply amazes me what people take away from any given discussion. I mean, ze says:
One of them said that
People who go through high school math can generally budget to some degree
to which I completely disagree. If you haven't learned how to look at a situation critically, you won't know where to begin.
Which is kinda what I was saying - the last part, anyway. (If my mom can budget, I think most people can, but there's muddling through, and there's doing it well.) Unless, of course, you're either taught that skill directly, or you're taught the critical thinking skills to tackle this. And in many high school math courses, you aren't given either.
But most hilariously, ze finishes this thought with (bolds mine):
No, math is definitely not the only one in which you learn these skills, but math and science (and technology, too!) are problem solving/critical thinking throughout, overloaded more than in other classes. Yes, you think critically in English. Depending on the history class, also there, but mine were mainly "memorize these facts and talk about the stuff that happened".
"Whoosh!" as my dad would say. Don't you LOVE when the person you've argued with makes your own points FOR you?
Yeah, critical thinking skills SHOULD be used in a history class. They often aren't, though, just as they often aren't in math classes. What this person apparently fails to realize is that most people experience math the way ze experienced history - "we memorized stuff."
It would be funnier if I wasn't over here beating my head on the desk.
I don't know how anyone can seriously look at America (or Canada, for that matter) and think to themselves, "Boy, there's some critical thinking skills in action!"
Gah.
