Rant time!

[beandelphiki]

Wow. I haven't posted in DAYS, mainly because I was sick and then I was frantically trying to catch up on shitloads of homework I had to do. Specifically, 29 pages of Physics, 9 units of math, and a Chem review booklet. Ew.

I'm spending so much time on homework lately, it's chewing my free time to bits.


Anyway, I wanted to talk about the phrase "love the sinner, hate the sin." Specifically in reference to GLBT people.


Love the sinner. Hate the sin. I am SO damn fucking tired of seeing this bullshit. I'm sick of seeing it from flittery female Christians trying to tell everyone to "Love each other! Because Jesus loves you! You don't need to judge - God will do that! Just live your life and love your fellow human being!" I hate it even more from fundamentalist homophobes who pull it out of their ass as an excuse for their behaviour. ("I don't hate gay people; I hate their disgusting lifestyle!")

Why would I hate it? Because it's such a complete. fucking. LIE! No matter who says it, or how good their intention might be.

Being gay or bisexual or tg is not a sin. Loving someone is not a sin. Having sex with people you love is not a sin. (Personally, I'd say that it's no sin to have sex with people you're just attracted to; but this confuses the issue with beliefs on casual sex, so I'll skip that.) There is no sin present to hate, so why the fuck are even these so-called "loving Christians" supporting this idea? Someone shat on some pieces of paper and called it, "Leviticus," and now we're going to take it seriously? The fuck?

I'm tired of hearing that it's okay to be gay, "as long as you don't act on it." We are made to express love in some very limited ways. It is not a sin to do so.

I'm also very tired of hearing gays themselves downplay their sexuality. "Oh, it's not so important, it's just one part of my life anyway."

What the hell? It affects most parts of your life. Especially if you're in a relationship. Yes, we are all more than who we screw, but your sexuality is not a piece of information I'd assign to the bin like the one entitled, "My Favorite Board Games + The Soup Mom Used to Make."

It is impossible to love the sinner and hate the sin, if you consider being trans a sin. It is not a sin; and if you hate that, you hate part of me.

Again: being trans is part of who I am. Further, it's a very important part of who I am. So is my sexuality; this is a vital part of any sexual being. I refuse to downplay that. I refuse to put it aside for someone else's issues with sex.

If someone tells me, "I love you but I hate your sins," then they are not someone I am any longer going to call my friend. That person hates or can't accept a vital part of me; they cannot be a friend.

If you tell me, "I love you, but I hate your sin," I can respect your right to believe what you want. I can even respect you as a person if you stand up for GLBT rights, whatever you may personally believe happens in the end.

But you're not my friend. So don't bother calling yourself one.

Comments

[siegeengine.livejournal.com]

you're right that it's fake and hypocritical... but it *can* be a fine line.

My sister, for instance, is a religious fanatic, in the most common sense of the word. She still always says she "loves" me, and such, but is always "praying" for me, ostensively to find my way to the right (her) "path."

My mom, on the other hand, is also fairly religious, and has joined the "Legion of Mary." She goes to soup kitchens to help out, visits sick people in hospitals and nursing homes, and cooks and delivers food to people who are homebound. She just loves me. What I am or what I do doesn't matter in the least. She doesn't "hate my sin" or anything of the sort. I even asked her...

I said something like, "doesn't my being bi and poly bother you, since you're, like, all religious."

She just snorted and waved her hand, saying, "listen. I LOVE you. that's it. that's all. that's all that matters."

hmm..

It occurs to me that your post wasn't about religious people, but about the phrase, "I love you, but I 'don't love' your sin." In that case, I've gone off on a tangent.

The first part of this was relevant, though, because that is exactly how my sister thinks, and her "love" is much less sure... much more in question, than my mom's... relationships aside. I mean, if they were just 2 friends, rather than my mom and sister, then it would be painfully clear who had the truer love, and who, by adhering to that hateful, judgemental phrase, had the faker love.

*hugs*

[aerindipity.livejournal.com]

You don't want to get me started on this topic. Having gone through a Catholic education and heard more of that bullshit than I could ever withstand.

Suffice to say, I agree with you completely.

[diverge.livejournal.com]

It's interesting that you post this, because a few days ago I asked my mom (who is a Catholic) if she thought that being gay is a sin. She thought about it for a few minutes, and then she told me no. The reason that I brought it up was because of someone saying that their dad would be one of those "love the sinner, hate the sin" people.

[beandelphiki.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it wasn't about religious people.

Religion in general pisses me off, but it's fine if Christians (or anyone else, really, but Christians in North America) aren't getting special rights, y'know? This whole "homosexuality is a sin" business is a large part of why gays are having so many problems getting equal rights. I blame the Church for most of that.

[siegeengine.livejournal.com]

amen to that.

hehe.. j/k. Yeah, you're right, it's always the religious right that blocks people getting rights and privileges that they think should be reserved for themselves (the "god fearing" folk.)

That's such crap. Their own god purportedly wanted equality for all, and for people to be treated as well as any other of "his children." I don't know where they dredge this stuff up. Ijits. :P

[de-ciel.livejournal.com]

I can see how it bothers you when people say that, because for the most part they are being completely hypocritical, but let me put it in terms like this: it's kinda like you've got a good friend who does something you don't approve of, whether it's drugs or excessively drinks or whatever. You can still care about them as a friend, but just not approve of what they're doing. That's all that phrase means.

I've known you a long time, and you've always known what I believe in, so let me add this. You're a trans, and I respect that. I don't "approve" of it, per se, but I respect your choice and will not judge you for it. I know I had some issues adjusting to it, and I'm sorry for what it caused you, especially since I'm one of those "so-called Christians." I didn't behave as I should have and that was my fault and I am truly sorry I did that to you. I don't "hate your sin" for being a trans; I still care about you as a friend, whether you want that friendship or not, is your own choice and either way, I will respect that.

Firstly, response to comment

[beandelphiki.livejournal.com]

Frankly, Deb, I didn't expect better of you. That's a harsh thing to say, but true. Yes, I do know the way you tend to react to things and that was the reason you were one of the last people I discussed this with. I fully expected to lose you as a friend over it, which is part of the reason I (to be fair) pushed the issue more than I should have, perhaps. I didn't want to lose your friendship, so I pushed in the hope you'd give.

I continue to pissed with people who believe being gay is wrong, because it's incredibly hurtful to gay kids growing up, and I don't understand why a "loving" religion could condone that, much less be the worst offenders.

But then, Christianity has ALWAYS stuck its fingers in its ears when it hears something it doesn't want to, and it's certainly sticking its fingers in its ears over the whole issue of homosexuality as a "choice."

There's more than enough evidence that there's a biological cause behind it - for example, did you know that scientists can make rats gay by giving them the wrong hormones in utero? - we just don't understand how it works yet. But we will.

So while I DO understand the reasoning behind your beliefs about this, I say it doesn't make sense. Saying you don't "approve" of homosexuality is like saying you don't "approve" of people having brown hair. It's silly. Disapproving of their hair won't make it less brown.

I didn't "chose" to be trans, I was born this way. (As far as I know, and that's what I believe, given the evidence.) I thought of myself as a guy as far back as I remember. I was 5 before I even realized other people didn't know I was a guy.

I could "choose" not to act on being trans. I could choose to act female, I could choose not to pursue surgery.

That would make me a lot of things, Deb. That would make me miserable, it would probably make me suicidal.

But it wouldn't make me a girl.

Now, to be fair, I know what it probably looks like to you. When you met me, I probably seemed happy enough, I guess. I probably seemed generally content, and then up and out of the blue, I "decide" I want to be a guy.

The thing is, I pretty much knew I was a guy when I was a kid. Junior high and the beginning of high school were a period when I was trying really hard to be "normal," and it just didn't work. I'd say I managed to be a happy enough kid, and I'd say that's because kids are awesome and can come out the other side of practically anything. But I didn't have the greatest time of it, and I did cry myself to sleep most nights because I wanted to have been born in a male body.

Understand I'm not trying to get pity here, because I'm well past the point of needing people to tell me "aww!" I'm trying to explain that there was a LOT going on behind the scenes that you didn't see; my "decision" was no decision at all, and not as sudden as it must have appeared.

So yes, it's not a choice. I know you've probably heard this a great deal before, and you're going to hear it a great deal more. In fact, you're going to keep hearing it from people until you accept it or you die, whichever comes first. Because it's true.

We all know I'm an atheist, but you know, if I DID believe in God, my idea of a God worth believing in is one who doesn't think it's a sin to be EXACTLY what he made you and do EXACTLY what he designed you to do. Which is what I'm doing.

Secondly, response to things said elsewhere that I just read tonight

[beandelphiki.livejournal.com]

Some points to consider:

-Christianity is BY FAR the majority in North America - over 75% of the population is Christian, I believe. Christianity is not in danger - your fears are groundless. Other religions have to struggle to keep themselves from going under, but Christianity will not.

-Further, Christians do not deserve SPECIAL rights. Do not assume that because it has (logically) been pulled from places like schools (separation of church and state, anyone?) that your religion is suffering.

-Yes, the girl in your home ec. class should have said something, but it sounds more like she was trying to use her religion as an excuse to get out of doing work, which is a problem with the individual. The pencils - can't speak. It sounds ridiculous, not letting a boy hand out pencils, but I don't know the whole story.

-I don't believe the Bible is hate literature. Not at all. But I don't blame those who want it banned on those grounds, considering that it is USED as hate literature. It is CURRENTLY being used to advocate the idea that it is "wrong" to be gay, and it's been used in the past to advocate things like slavery. That is not the fault of the Bible, though.

-I don't currently want gay marriage to happen. I don't want the church to be forced into accepting it - I want the church to accept gays on its own. Actually, what I think should happen is that marriage should be de-legalized, and civil unions made equal for everyone. Meaning: everyone who wants to legally commit to each other for a lifetime gets EQUAL legal rights, and "marriage" becomes a purely religious ceremony in addition to the legal civil union. That means the Church will be able to marry ONLY who they want, so they can stop squawking. The REASON gays are claiming that the Church is discriminating against them is because it IS - marriage currently has LEGAL benefits that gay couples can't share, yet it tries to protect that under freedom of religion laws. Can't work like that.

Take a parallel: any religion could claim black people don't deserve rights, but that religion should not legally be allowed to keep blacks from having rights. Make sense?

-The Bible has repeatedly been HORRIBLY mis-translated, and it's not the opinion of every Bible scholar that the Bible claims homosexuality is wrong. In fact, there are many who say otherwise. Ask, and I can give you a link to a site where a doctor of theology will explain how the Bible has been mistranslated regarding homosexuality, and how the Bible does in fact not say it's wrong.

-I think the Church will someday realize what a mistake it's made with gay rights. If miracles happened, it would realize that NOW, before hundreds more turn from the Church in disgust. But that's not going to happen, because religions in general don't like to change, and that's their biggest flaw.

Re: Firstly, response to comment

[de-ciel.livejournal.com]

I've always known we'd fight over this, and I'm sorry it's ended up this way. I take responsibility for part of it because I know I've been judgemental and hurtful at times. But, to be fair, I've also spent some time growing, and a lot of time considering what I stand for and what I believe, and who I am and who I'm going to become. A lot of time, so what I say, even though it may come out wrong sometimes, it isn't the result of emotion, but rather, it's the result of a lot of consideration and trying to word things so that my meaning is clear.

And I failed to do that well when I posted. I shouldn't have used "approve." I don't agree with it, may have been a better way of putting it. You're right in that I can't say "approve" because you're right, sometimes we just can't choose what we feel or what we look like or whatever. Fine, but at the same time, because it is a choice, and sometimes... this is so hard. I can't judge you for what you are and I'm not going to. Frankly, nothing I say would change anything, about you, between us, nothing and it might just make things worse, so I'm not going to bother.

I don't pity you for what happened in your past because I know you're a strong person and that you're grown from there. When I posted I was just trying to explain to you where the phrase "love the sinner but hate the sin" came from. I won't go any further into it. You have your opinions and I have mine. About certain subjects, I will never change my opinion and I know that sounds harsh, but you have to understand where I'm coming from, and you don't, and that's fine.
I respect the way you think and you're choices, and whether or not I agree with them, I still respect you as a person and that won't ever change, regardless of whether we're friends or not. It's funny 'cause I always regreted what happened between us, and I've always blamed myself. Always. I can't go on writing. It's just making me miserable. Whereever we go on from here, I wish you the best. I really really do.

Re: Firstly, response to comment

[beandelphiki.livejournal.com]

Yay. you respect me. I respect you, too. Which is why this seems so stupid to me, because I'm of the opinion you could do better than listen to the crap the church tells you about this. It's wrong about this. One day, the church will admit that.

I understand the "love the sinner, hate the sin," opinion itself. What I don't understand is how anyone could hold an opinion that makes no logical sense whatsoever. My post was about why it doesn't make sense.

See, I'm not backing down on this either. My life is quite literally at stake. Large amount of people announcing it's "wrong" are what leads to hate crimes. (And nobody need add at this point, "But I'm not like that!" because I already know you're not.) And as I've already said, if I'm not going to be true to who I am - what God made me, if you must - then I am going to commit suicide, because it certainly is not worth it otherwise. And if there is a God, I'm sure he knows that. Even if "Christians" don't.

Re: Firstly, response to comment

[de-ciel.livejournal.com]

I'm tired of talking about this, and I'm tired that you're always insulting me and what I believe in, in one way or another, whether it's intentional or not. I'm fed up with it all. Say what you want, believe what you want, but I'm through.

Re: Firstly, response to comment

[beandelphiki.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure what you think I'm insulting. It sure isn't Christianity - I know plenty of gay-friendly and gay Christians, and I don't have a problem with that.

I AM insulting homophobia. The same way I'd insult racism. It's not worthy of respect.