beandelphiki | Holy sh... Racism drama!

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Holy sh... Racism drama!

WOW. SO MUCH DRAMA in lj-land last night. I didn't get any schoolin' done.

So...people outside of

feminist have been complaining for ages that the community lets white privilege run unchecked, and that it's exclusionary to women of color. The mods decide to fix this.

welsey makes a mod post explaining the new rules.

Based on some feedback, here are definitions of racism and sexism as we are using them. We are aware of the dictionary definition; however, we have chosen to use this definition because it is commonly used in anti-racist and social justice communities, and we ask that you also use it while you are in our space. More clarification may be added later:
racism = prejudice + power
sexism = prejudice + power
We separate these things from prejudice because the implications of racism and sexism (as we define them) are so much more significant and powerful than those of prejudice.

[...]

Reverse racism is not a valid concept.

And

feminist go BOOM.

People disagree, whine, complain, and just generally miss the entire point.

I replied, basically telling the mods pip-pip and good job, and I was sorry they were taking so much crap from the uninformed. I should have realized that would cause a shitload of drama, but didn't really. That also went BOOM.

(Can anybody tell that I have very, very little patience? Yeah. I think I really got off on the wrong foot with the "dingdingding" comment, but really...when someone says that OMG! You're calling all the [white, because that's what I meant] people who disagree with anti-racism rules racist! the snark just tends to come out.)

They're/we're up to 700 comments now. I started replying because I said that I did not want to leave the mods fighting this one alone. I am almost sorry at this point; my inbox is pleading with me to stop, so I'm mostly going to bow out and see how it plays.

Over on journalfen, OTF_Wank is having a real laugh at our expense.

(First comment: "

beandelphiki is a moron." I think I also got called a "Feminazi," the logic of which makes my brain hurt. I thought that if I ever got called THAT, it would be for arguing hard-line pro-choice or something, not critical race theory. OKAY!)

More fallout:

blackfolk: Nice try guys, but you still SUCK.

sex_and_race/

feminist_rage: See, this is why we're all in HERE, instead of over THERE. (Idiots.)

ap_racism: Okay, nothing yet, but I'm waiting on the "GAAAH!" reaction. SOMEBODY will say something, I'm sure.

*sits and looks at this mess*

You know, I think it's a good thing I will be busy working a lot during Christmas, and staying (for the most part) far away from lj. MY BRAIN.

Edit: Yes, I'm white. Jeebus. (And if you don't know why I added this, don't worry, just ignore.)

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Interesting. It's something a lot of people should know about. That said, there might be one nitpick. Some incidents of prejudice are more harmful than some aspects of racism. Also racism doesn't need an institution to exist, it can be done be a person. I've always held that reverse racism didn't exist because racism is just "racism" and there are no "forward" or "backward" and to imply a "forward" somehow implies that one is somehow above or below or otherwise oriented as primary or perhaps more common (which might be the case but not a better point).

Anyhow, I think it might only be controversial because it might be a deep subject to think about due to our day to day understandings or misunderstandings or blindness to what may exist beneathe our noses. I know there is homophobia-"ism".

Many people reject "isms" altogether as do say the Rastafarians...(whether you agree with them or not...they used to be more Black Supremacy but now are not). So with all these "reversals" of stance and description and new senses of understanding...it is understandable to want to discuss but perhaps not to disagree with some policy that looks well and soundly put forth.

I'm laughing at "homophobia-ism." :P

In the context of what's being discussed there, racial prejudice can never be more harmful than racism, because a racist culture is always the larger context for racial prejudice. Hope that makes sense. Ask if it doesn't, I'll try to explain further.

Also racism doesn't need an institution to exist, it can be done be a person.

It's true that racial prejudice does not require institutionalization behind it; people of color can be prejudiced towards whites or towards each other, but this is not systematically entrenched in that they are capable of oppressing another racial group in our society. White racism IS systematic like that, and is oppressive. Again, I hope that makes sense.

Anyhow, I think it might only be controversial because it might be a deep subject to think about due to our day to day understandings or misunderstandings or blindness to what may exist beneathe our noses.

Exactly!

it is understandable to want to discuss but perhaps not to disagree with some policy that looks well and soundly put forth.

I would have been happy, honestly, to discuss the matter calmly, but it pushes my buttons big time when people start complaining, "You're calling me names!" before they ask "what's going on, and could things be clarified first?"

The policy itself, as I understand it, was developed with some thought between the mods as a result of months of expressed discontent from people. It wasn't like they just woke up yesterday and decided to make new rules.

Thanks for checking in.

I mean, only in individualized contexts, one act of racial prejudice can be worse than another but neither as bad as the racism. I mean, a black person killing a white person because of color is worse than denying a job to a black person and it is certainly true with the colors switched (and possibly worse because of "racism" as defined in the context being stated) but neither is as bad as racism as a whole and the racism exists where the side is strongest. I still don't think a "system" is necessarily racist because it has power because it could be diverse and fair but ours isn't. That's all.

The systematic racism does make sense and I acknowledge that it exists.

I avoid ad hominems at all costs. I will typically ignore all future posts as soon as it may rear its head. I guess I do need to understand more the months of discontent and I'm sure there are very valid reasons for it. Really, just checking in to agree with everything you've said and I wanted to clarify that I agree, racial prejudice can never be more harmful than racism as it exists now. As long as we have capital punishment, it definitely is. Oppression is too. However, if there is "very very subtle/slight" turned up noses and a lot of killings by the oppressed in response, I think it can be debatable at that point. In the general context that can be true. It isn't in any contexts that I know of now though. I think racism is quantifiable by sum of harm as well as fears and emotions of people horrified/oppressed by it.

Hrmm. Let me think on this and get back to you.

I'll just say that I think a lot of people there don't realize how long this has been stewing for, so to them it appears very sudden and arbitrary. Which may be in slight part reason for the reaction. Slight part.

One guess where it came from.

I (or someone) will be on this in

ap_racism soon. In the meantime, I posted a snark thread in

dot_race_snark.

Oooh! I was just going to add that one! I forgot it at first, cuz I'm not a member, and it's not yours.

Weirdly, the people in OTF_Wank are driving me the most nuts, although I specifically went there to find the mocking. It does not particularly bother me that they disagree - I knew that, kittie and I have had discussions with people in there before, and I know what the atmosphere is like.

It's that I am somehow the "wankiest," or close to, (out of 800 comments?) so I may not be able to post there for a while without getting some sort of snarky response to every other comment. That's happened to some people.

Then again, this could fade away into OTF_Wank obscurity, as so many things do, but I am annoyed by the possibility that I may spend the next several months fielding snide rimshots about how wrong I am that white people are racist.

with the OTF_wank. You know, you'd think there'd be more blackfolk stuff and such in some of these lj-drama-related places, but no one wants to publicize it when the POC are "winning."

OH YES. I just KNOW there are anti-racists and POC in there who would post, say, things like the zra shit. (And I don't think that got posted. I could be wrong, maybe I missed it. I'll have to check.) But a lot of it would be a mess.

Not that the _wank people are idiots. In general, I've noticed that the wank communities tend to be left-leaning and to be slightly more up on things than the general lj population. And there's a couple of good points being made over there that I'm not addressing because I'd rather not stick my neck out anymore. But...just as much "not getting it." And misunderstanding of linguistics. And so on.

Haha....did you see this?

Oh, and someone told me that I'm just a shit-stirrer, and "not a feminist." Holy crap, parts of this are ALMOST fun, but they are also mind-boggling.

What a bunch of crap. Note that the "WOC" comm was "low activity," and they completely ignored

sex_and_race. I don't know how anti-racist feminists could NOT know about it.

And yeah-- you're SO not a feminist. I saw that shit. *stabby*

I personally love the person in the comments section who posted a link to

baft_rage, run by no other than

ginmar herself, the reigning queen of "thou shalt not disagree with me, ever."

I wish anyone who defects to THERE real luck with that one. (True!: I originally had that as "defecates." Hello Freud...)

The "not a feminist" thing is going to be my WTF for the week.

WOC *is* low-activity - the last post was almost three months ago. If that's because there are a lot of locked posts, that's one thing, but there's no way for a non-member to tell that.

Um, hello. *waves*

If that's because there are a lot of locked posts, that's one thing, but there's no way for a non-member to tell that.

I believe you can tell. Click "more details" at the bottom of the page. It'll tell you when the last post was made.

(It's telling me 7 weeks, so yeah - that's still pretty low-activity.)

Ah, I always overlook the "more details" part. Will keep that in mind, thanks.

And I'm not trying to be creepy here on your journal or anything - just figured I'd look through the responses various people were posting in regards to all this, because apparently it's the LJ Event of the Decade.

Okay, that's fine. With people being so upset, I hope you can understand that I was just a touch wary.

But I'm sure a lot of people are doing the same thing (reading everyone else's reactions).

What I'm saying is-- I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm saying that there's at least one comm for WOC (

sex_and_race) that is NOT low-activity. Not at all. We're generally talking at least a post a day, which is pretty good for a smallish comm.

My point is that not listing it (when the mod is a member of

feminist) tells me that the members of

feminist are mostly unaware of the cogent feminist spaces for WOC on LJ. Just sayin'.

Understood. I didn't list sex_and_race because the people who feel restricted by the changes and recent activity in feminist are unlikely to want to go there, and I am almost certain that the community doesn't want most of them there either.

I forgot you were the OP. What you said makes sense to a point-- although I imagine that women who feel upset by the ridiculousness of many of the posters in that thread (as opposed to feeling restricted) might be interested in S&R. But whatever...

SO WANKY YOU ARE!!1

BUT I'M RITE AND TEHY'RE RONG!!1

So it's okay!

...And I hate communities that set their comments to "friends only". Fuckin' bunch of... ... ... :-*

*larf* And it's the biggest feminist community on lj, too. I understand that they don't want to be overrun by trolls, but apparently there's 70+ people to be approved at any time. I think they need more mods.

You know, I didn't even apply to get in? Some mod just added me a bunch of months back. Somehow, that makes this just a touch more amusing to me.

*am still reading your wanky wank*

ha, I don't know if I'd even get in with my interests listed. XD! I could try, but I dunno if I'd be able to survive the testosterone-cannibalizing "womyn" there.

And have I mentioned lately how much I despise that stupid gender lingo, i.e. "hir" and "ze" and all of that shit? I do. I despise it. Which would probably make them all despise me. XD!!!

I'll use it if someone identifies that way; I think that's basic respect. I take the stance that I'll use their pronouns if they use mine.

Otherwise, I figure "they" works perfectly fine.

Although I did prefer to be referred to as "hir" and "s/he" rather than the "she"s I got in there. "She" makes my eyes twitch; at least the person who used "hir" realized that they had no fucking clue what my gender is.

The majority, I think, don't use "womyn." A few over in fem_rage do, and I just ignore them. Talk about missing the whole point.

I DIDN'T KNOW YOU WERE A RACIST OMG :o!111

I'll freely admit I'm racist to varying degrees. And I was raised 'white', even though I look like a wetback (like my Mom says....I guess she's racist too, since...well, look at my icon XD!). I bet they'd love my brutal honesty in that community. XD!

The thing about saying "X person is a racist" is that it's really NOT a personal insult.

White + raised in a society stuffed to the gills with white racism = a racist.

So NOT personal. As long as it stays personal, people are gonna be defensive. As long as people are defensive, shit doesn't get done.

It's a mess.

...Which is why it'd probably be more productive to shop for the holidays than engaging in battle with those of tiny minds.

:D

*is nevertheless, STILL reading because I've been sucked into it*

And since I can't post there, I...wh...this whole new definition/modified movement to redefine racism has got to be elitest feminist/socio-political, because the definition of racism is thus:

rac·ism
Pronunciation: 'rA-"si-z&m also -"shi-
Function: noun
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination

because come on. this shit is getting ridiculous...and it's this kind of manipulation that leads to more evil manipulations like what started the whole political correctness movement in language (chessdev is wrong in the assertion that If the term, as it is being used, cannot be found in a credible dictionary or reference guide -- then it does not magically gain credibility by being practiced by certain groups., because this tactic is what's used by neocons to manipulate The Stupid [i.e., those who voted for Bush thinking that he stood for things that he didn't]...and everything from half-lies to full-on lies become truth in that process).

Damn you for compelling me with your tasty bits of wankery.

And since I can't post there, I...wh...this whole new definition/modified movement to redefine racism has got to be elitest feminist/socio-political, because the definition of racism is thus:

*head tilts* Just so I know where I stand with you in regards to this:

Have you gotten to my comments yet, or is this your expressed disagreement? i.e. Are you disagreeing with ME yet, or no?

Just wanna know when I should start explaining/debating.

(Which is not intended to be combative, but I expected SOMEONE on my friends list would argue with me. So.)

I'm agreeing to not disagree OR agree, because I don't want to engage in any wanktastic flame warring. I'm just telling you that I do stand by the definition as outlined in those OMG WRITTEN BY WHITE MEN dictionaries in regard to the definition of what racism is, not this socio-political crap being thrown around that racism is strictly bound to the WHITE PATRIARCHY/institutional construct and that the proper term is "prejudice" (i.e., whatever the fuck they were saying about racism /= prejudice).

Plus I've moved on to ranting about personal accountability elsewhere. :D Your thread started to give me a migraine. :|

And I THINK I'm agreeing with you...but if I'm wrong, you can correct me. Just don't engage me...because then I'll have to tell your WHITE OPPRESSIVE ASS TO GO TO HELL YOU RACIST ANTI-FEMINIST!!!1 (:-* Kidding.)

I've been halfway watching what's going down in

feminist. God...I feel so sorry for welsey right now. Sure, maybe there should be some clarifications or whatnot to the definitions, but that's why you discuss and learn. Outright disagreeing that racism is prevalent in many societies, is a global problem, and that people in power wield their prejudice in very, very different ways than oppressed people...name-calling and mud flinging...it's become such a zoo in there. Though that's to be expected when people get their privilege put right under their nose where they can smell it. :P
I agree that some people are taking it personally and getting defensive when they could be learning from POC experiences, or just treating others with basic human respect.

I feel TERRIBLE for

welsey. Basically she gets to listen to all the privileged white people complain that they're not allowed to say racist crap, and it's making them feel unsafe and un-empowered. And how much she and the other mods suck for making them feel that way.

If I were a mod of

feminist right now, I think I'd nearly be in tears.

um... damn.
you're famous!! :))

I still... and don't take this wrong, but, I still don't get the point of arguing with people.... I was going to say, "with stupid people," or "ignorant people," but really... I don't get the point of arguing with anyone unless there is a reasonable chance that someone is capable of accepting your points.

Then again, I guess there really isn't any way to tell how people are going to react until you start the conversation going.

Ahh....it's that I have major hot buttons, you know?

Like when someone replied to my first comment there, saying, "It sounds like you're calling all the people who don't like the new rules racist!" I felt like smacking them upside the head with a frying pan and saying, "OMG did that HURT?! It wasn't obvious that it would!"

(Of course, there are a VERY few who have objections that should be taken seriously, but most of them are just wankers.)

...Aaand, you knew all that about my big mouth. :P I'm just saying.

you're famous!! :))

Haha, you know? I can't remember the last time I had so much scorn heaped upon my head.

The best part though, is the first comment. When they referred to the "giftedadults" wank. That was like...3 months ago. And I left...like 2 comments. Who would REMEMBER that?

I think I have an e-stalker. And not the good kind. Kind of "whoa."

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Holy sh... Racism drama!

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I have such a headache.

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I don't even want to go there...

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smh

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Okay...

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Ah...

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BTW

Bet they would!

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Holy sh... Racism drama!

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I have such a headache.

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I don't even want to go there...

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*smh*

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Okay...

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Ah...

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Bet they would!

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smh

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